Feedback and Suggestions
28 posts
• Page 2 of 2 • 1, 2
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by *BlackMagic* » 13 May 2010, 09:54
inGame: BlackMagic
Rank: Co Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2009, 20:17
Online: 42d 20h 41m 37s
Location: Delft
Age: 27
Medals: 16
Joined: 24 Apr 2009, 20:17
Online: 42d 20h 41m 37s
Location: Delft
Age: 27
Medals: 16
1498 Posts
1975_Parnelli_cockpitinfo.ini
Each team has one of these
CockpitVibrationMag=0.002 // default is 0.006
Thats the line atm.
Each team has one of these
CockpitVibrationMag=0.002 // default is 0.006
Thats the line atm.
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by Christopher Snow » 14 May 2010, 00:41
.png "United States (us)")
inGame: Christopher Snow
Rank: Amateur Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
51 Posts
Bug Report in version 1.0 (and presumably every earlier version too): The next to the last line of the "F17_engine" file should properly read: OnboardStarter=1
[The cars did have onboard starters, of course]
Our WSC70 cars and the popular F1-67's are both correct in this regard, and I can vouch for the fact that both function pretty realistically* using a starter and an ignition toggle, so I hope these can be corrected ASAP too.
[* the only issue being the need to reset the toggle switch back to "on" before starting again from the pitbox if you shut the engine down for any reason and don't restart it (the switch then "reads backwards" if you forget it)].
Unfortunately, simply editing the "F17_engine" file to reflect proper operation will cause online (.hdv) mismatches if the server isn't properly/correctly configured as well, so until the next version is fixed, guys like me (who run with ALL the aids off, including auto-clutch) will probably be sidelined...unless we drive anyway, and accept the risk of stalling without having a way to refire the car.
While I like the mod quite a lot, I don't think I'd want to risk that in a 35 lap race (I do often stall it if I spin
to a stop).
Christopher Snow
[The cars did have onboard starters, of course]
Our WSC70 cars and the popular F1-67's are both correct in this regard, and I can vouch for the fact that both function pretty realistically* using a starter and an ignition toggle, so I hope these can be corrected ASAP too.
[* the only issue being the need to reset the toggle switch back to "on" before starting again from the pitbox if you shut the engine down for any reason and don't restart it (the switch then "reads backwards" if you forget it)].
Unfortunately, simply editing the "F17_engine" file to reflect proper operation will cause online (.hdv) mismatches if the server isn't properly/correctly configured as well, so until the next version is fixed, guys like me (who run with ALL the aids off, including auto-clutch) will probably be sidelined...unless we drive anyway, and accept the risk of stalling without having a way to refire the car.
While I like the mod quite a lot, I don't think I'd want to risk that in a 35 lap race (I do often stall it if I spin
to a stop).
Christopher Snow
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by *BlackMagic* » 14 May 2010, 01:22
inGame: BlackMagic
Rank: Co Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2009, 20:17
Online: 42d 20h 41m 37s
Location: Delft
Age: 27
Medals: 16
Joined: 24 Apr 2009, 20:17
Online: 42d 20h 41m 37s
Location: Delft
Age: 27
Medals: 16
1498 Posts
@Christopher
That's a 74 car. Listen how he says, its selft starting now, but it would have had an air starter back in the day. So I believe 75 cars weren't able to restart on track on their own, only in pitlane with air hooked up. But I hear you, its a PITA to spin and stall and be out of the race. Hope ISI come up with a fix for that in RF2
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by Christopher Snow » 14 May 2010, 02:29
inGame: Christopher Snow
Rank: Amateur Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
51 Posts
Watched it (nice vid, thx for posting), but I'll still have to disagree with your extrapolation of thought, re: the starter. Moreover, I'll opine that even Brundle himself might have assumed an outside air-source was required back then, when it actually was not--just because it was typically used does not mean it was actually required. I do understand, too, the general point you are making about the air starter being borderline inadequate (see more below)...and even my own memory of that era tells me one could only be used about five or six times at best before the air-supply bottle ran out.
I have Lauda's first book here in front of me (describing his 1975 Ferrari 312T in detail), and the only similar point he makes is that the car's electrical system is normally plugged into an auxiliary power source "to conserve the battery" when the car is started in the pits, but he generally alludes to the idea that the car could be restarted if stalled out on the track, (perhaps unless the battery was flat for some reason--failed recharging circuit, etc). He very definitely describes the cockpit having a "push button starter," and gives every indication that it was this push-button alone which was used to actually start the car, even when in the pits (rather than starting it with an auxiliary shaft-drive motor as with some other types of cars).
I do remember reading too, that occasionally a starter motor overheated and wouldn't re-fire the car (perhaps couldn't engage the flywheel rim gear), but I think that was fairly rare unless the driver had bogged it heavily somehow.
I'll see what his second book has to say about it later (written then with more regard to the ground effect era, and early-mid eighties cars).
-----
Found a solution in the meantime, I think--auto-clutch toggle on, then start, then auto-clutch toggle back off--the question is: can I remember how to do it under pressure?
I might have more to say about that after Sunday.
CS
I have Lauda's first book here in front of me (describing his 1975 Ferrari 312T in detail), and the only similar point he makes is that the car's electrical system is normally plugged into an auxiliary power source "to conserve the battery" when the car is started in the pits, but he generally alludes to the idea that the car could be restarted if stalled out on the track, (perhaps unless the battery was flat for some reason--failed recharging circuit, etc). He very definitely describes the cockpit having a "push button starter," and gives every indication that it was this push-button alone which was used to actually start the car, even when in the pits (rather than starting it with an auxiliary shaft-drive motor as with some other types of cars).
I do remember reading too, that occasionally a starter motor overheated and wouldn't re-fire the car (perhaps couldn't engage the flywheel rim gear), but I think that was fairly rare unless the driver had bogged it heavily somehow.
I'll see what his second book has to say about it later (written then with more regard to the ground effect era, and early-mid eighties cars).
-----
Found a solution in the meantime, I think--auto-clutch toggle on, then start, then auto-clutch toggle back off--the question is: can I remember how to do it under pressure?
I might have more to say about that after Sunday.
CS
Last edited by Christopher Snow on 14 May 2010, 06:58, edited 7 times in total.
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by Christopher Snow » 14 May 2010, 03:25
inGame: Christopher Snow
Rank: Amateur Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
51 Posts
Followup: All F1 cars had to be equipped--by rule--with an onboard starter* even as late as 1982, according to Lauda's second (technical) book (written in 1982/published in 1984).
* The question had become though: was the "starter" (the air starter specifically) there to actually restart the car or was it there simply to meet the requirement of the rules that there be one? Indeed, Lauda points out that, by then, the onboard air-starter was often ill-equipped--overmatched--when actually called upon to restart a hot engine--that it quite often "gave up" before getting the motor restarted (and even then, it sounds like it needed to be recharged again after just one use at best by 1982--the required on-board air bottle had been shrunk down to a bare minimum).
But there definitely WAS still something called an onboard starter on every car, even by that late date, so I still say the next-to-the-last line in the "F17_engine" file should be changed to reflect that fact.
He also points out that every F1 team except Ferrari used the air-starter by then--Ferrari alone were still using the classic electric-start system.
----
I will admit that "rolling the dice"...calculating the "odds" of restarting would bring in an interesting (and very annoying!) new "feature" to the mix...but I suppose that's one for the damage file (or maybe the .hdv?).
----
One last point (from the second book): Lauda points out that the rules governing engines were generally the same from 1966 up through 1985, so I suspect it's only sometime in '85 at which point the "general rule" still requiring the presence of an onboard starter would likely first have been changed, at the earliest (and even then only for F1 regulations affecting cars to be raced in 1986 or thereafter).
Can't QUITE prove it from these two sources though--can only allude to it (but still rather strongly, I think).
CS
* The question had become though: was the "starter" (the air starter specifically) there to actually restart the car or was it there simply to meet the requirement of the rules that there be one? Indeed, Lauda points out that, by then, the onboard air-starter was often ill-equipped--overmatched--when actually called upon to restart a hot engine--that it quite often "gave up" before getting the motor restarted (and even then, it sounds like it needed to be recharged again after just one use at best by 1982--the required on-board air bottle had been shrunk down to a bare minimum).
But there definitely WAS still something called an onboard starter on every car, even by that late date, so I still say the next-to-the-last line in the "F17_engine" file should be changed to reflect that fact.
He also points out that every F1 team except Ferrari used the air-starter by then--Ferrari alone were still using the classic electric-start system.
----
I will admit that "rolling the dice"...calculating the "odds" of restarting would bring in an interesting (and very annoying!) new "feature" to the mix...but I suppose that's one for the damage file (or maybe the .hdv?).
----
One last point (from the second book): Lauda points out that the rules governing engines were generally the same from 1966 up through 1985, so I suspect it's only sometime in '85 at which point the "general rule" still requiring the presence of an onboard starter would likely first have been changed, at the earliest (and even then only for F1 regulations affecting cars to be raced in 1986 or thereafter).
Can't QUITE prove it from these two sources though--can only allude to it (but still rather strongly, I think).
CS
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by *BlackMagic* » 14 May 2010, 13:35
inGame: BlackMagic
Rank: Co Admin
Joined: 24 Apr 2009, 20:17
Online: 42d 20h 41m 37s
Location: Delft
Age: 27
Medals: 16
Joined: 24 Apr 2009, 20:17
Online: 42d 20h 41m 37s
Location: Delft
Age: 27
Medals: 16
1498 Posts
Nice read m8, its up to JC, its his mod. But for me on-board starter would be on the list to go in the mod. It's quite dangerous on grids etc, people stalling it. So i'd rather have people have a perhaps not so real starter, then huge pileups because someone has a bad clutch foot
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by Luka K. » 14 May 2010, 14:29
inGame: csr_Luka
Rank: Site Admin
Joined: 09 Apr 2008, 22:16
Online: 115d 21h 43m 49s
Location: Piran, Slovenia
Age: 26
Medals: 1
Joined: 09 Apr 2008, 22:16
Online: 115d 21h 43m 49s
Location: Piran, Slovenia
Age: 26
Medals: 1
1112 Posts
there is a started fail value, so it can be set not to start every time 
Founder of Varjanta SimRacing
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by J.C.Case » 14 May 2010, 19:55
inGame: JC Case
Rank: Co Admin
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 00:36
Online: 67d 20h 50m 1s
Age: 49
Medals: 3
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 00:36
Online: 67d 20h 50m 1s
Age: 49
Medals: 3
965 Posts
Christopher Snow wrote:
Found a solution in the meantime, I think--auto-clutch toggle on, then start, then auto-clutch toggle back off--the question is: can I remember how to do it under pressure?
CS
Has never hit you that you can engage the clutch when/if you spin the car..?
----------
Cheers
/JC
"We're having chassis, aero and motor problems.
Other than that, things are great."
Other than that, things are great."
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by Christopher Snow » 14 May 2010, 23:28
inGame: Christopher Snow
Rank: Amateur Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
51 Posts
Oh yeah, and I try to do that, certainly, JC. In fact, I've lately been using a wheelbutton for the clutch (small issue with the mechanical working of my clutch pedal), and my left thumb is probably twice as fast getting to that as my left foot normally is getting onto the pedal (when I use it instead).
What your'e describing is the old racing rule: "When in doubt, both feet out" (brake on, clutch out)." But if you don't get the engine disengaged quickly enough--if it spins really quickly sideways, it can still die on you, and if you're too slow then when rolling backwards--or if the track confines are too tight--then you may not be able to bump-start it.
Part of the reason I know it was still required too was for the ease of getting the track cleared--the quick-lift cranes that are so omni-present today were still fairly rare back then, and F1 still visited some long tracks (like Nurburgring), so unless they wanted to bring everything to a halt when a car spun into a dangerous spot (which happened often enough anyway for other reasons), it was practical to still have a way for the driver to get his car moved to safety himself.
----
Luka might have a good point there too, and from what I've read, the "odds" of successfully restarting would generally have gone down each year (and would be lower as well for those cars which used the airstarters-Ferrari would have an advantage in that regard).
FWIW, we're racing the LE version on Sunday, so they'd all be the same anyway in that one.
CS
What your'e describing is the old racing rule: "When in doubt, both feet out" (brake on, clutch out)." But if you don't get the engine disengaged quickly enough--if it spins really quickly sideways, it can still die on you, and if you're too slow then when rolling backwards--or if the track confines are too tight--then you may not be able to bump-start it.
Part of the reason I know it was still required too was for the ease of getting the track cleared--the quick-lift cranes that are so omni-present today were still fairly rare back then, and F1 still visited some long tracks (like Nurburgring), so unless they wanted to bring everything to a halt when a car spun into a dangerous spot (which happened often enough anyway for other reasons), it was practical to still have a way for the driver to get his car moved to safety himself.
----
Luka might have a good point there too, and from what I've read, the "odds" of successfully restarting would generally have gone down each year (and would be lower as well for those cars which used the airstarters-Ferrari would have an advantage in that regard).
FWIW, we're racing the LE version on Sunday, so they'd all be the same anyway in that one.
CS
Last edited by Christopher Snow on 17 May 2010, 11:00, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by Christopher Snow » 15 May 2010, 03:31
inGame: Christopher Snow
Rank: Amateur Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
51 Posts
Ok, results from further digging indicate an onboard starter was no longer required in F1 beginning with the 1983 season (a technical description of the 1983 Brabham BT52 indicates that car was started with an separate stand-alone starter motor which keyed into the back of the transmission and fed power back through the gearbox and clutch to start the car).
However, an onboard starter IS present on every other F1 car raced up through the 1982 season, so it seems the end of 1982 is the real cut-off point, and not 1985 as I'd guessed last night--it seems Lauda's second technical book was written just before this rulechange was affected.
So there we have it--the line should read: "OnboardStarter=1" for F1 cars up through 1982, and "OnboardStarter=0" for F1 cars of 1983 or later vintage.
Additional modifications would add another layer of complexity/risk on top of this, of course.
-----
A couple of relevant passages and examples (the 1979 Renault RE20, in this first case):
"STARTING"
"The starter operates pneumatically and is made by Renault. It can be operated from the cockpit and from outside. A small reserve of compressed air situated on the gearbox enables the driver to make two or three starts out on the track. (...)".
The dashboard of the car sported an "igntion contact push-button."
----
A technical description of the Ferrari 312 Boxer engine reveals that "A Varley 12v battery supplies the current and operates the electric Magnetti Marelli starter motor located at the front end of the gearbox." *
[* Elsewhere in the book there is a detailed technical description of the 1979 Ferrari 312T4 (which evolved later into the T5) in which this engine was used]. Essentially still the same engine used at the end of the decade as the one used in the 1975 312T.
CS
However, an onboard starter IS present on every other F1 car raced up through the 1982 season, so it seems the end of 1982 is the real cut-off point, and not 1985 as I'd guessed last night--it seems Lauda's second technical book was written just before this rulechange was affected.
So there we have it--the line should read: "OnboardStarter=1" for F1 cars up through 1982, and "OnboardStarter=0" for F1 cars of 1983 or later vintage.
Additional modifications would add another layer of complexity/risk on top of this, of course.
-----
A couple of relevant passages and examples (the 1979 Renault RE20, in this first case):
"STARTING"
"The starter operates pneumatically and is made by Renault. It can be operated from the cockpit and from outside. A small reserve of compressed air situated on the gearbox enables the driver to make two or three starts out on the track. (...)".
The dashboard of the car sported an "igntion contact push-button."
----
A technical description of the Ferrari 312 Boxer engine reveals that "A Varley 12v battery supplies the current and operates the electric Magnetti Marelli starter motor located at the front end of the gearbox." *
[* Elsewhere in the book there is a detailed technical description of the 1979 Ferrari 312T4 (which evolved later into the T5) in which this engine was used]. Essentially still the same engine used at the end of the decade as the one used in the 1975 312T.
CS
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by J.C.Case » 15 May 2010, 23:14
inGame: JC Case
Rank: Co Admin
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 00:36
Online: 67d 20h 50m 1s
Age: 49
Medals: 3
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 00:36
Online: 67d 20h 50m 1s
Age: 49
Medals: 3
965 Posts
Hi Christopher, I would like to say that I´m sorry if I came out as a bit blunt last evening, I did not mean to be that, it just (perhaps) turned out that way..
A couple of my old bro´s who had got word about me doing better now, meaning that the severe burning pain that I´ve felt on my legs has decreased lately, and that I´m doing a lot better now. And they did show up to buy me a few beers down town just as I had read your post´s in this thread so I felt in a bit of hurry wanting to answering your post´s feeling that your comment about auto clutch was a bit strange.
I did however NOT mean to be either disrespectful or blunt mate, I was just in a hurry with my bro´s standing in my hallway waiting for me.
...
And I do appreciate your research and feedback too but even so, I will not add on board starters to the engines as I´m to start with are not certain that they really used those. And besides that I don´t think that they belong in this mod which is supposed to be the "high end" of single seaters mods. Meaning that the cars which (might) feels very nice too drive and so on actually still are F1 cars from an era when they really demanded a lot from you as a driver to be driven really fast AND consistent and I want this mod to reflect that.
My last two races have actually ended in DNF´s just because I stalled the engine, and even if it suxx doing that I feel that it is appropriate as it´s down to me to not stall the engine and if I still do that, tough luck, race over.
This mod IS meant to be driven on line by (nearly) the whole spectrum of drivers from the really experienced sim racing drivers like you and me to the let´s say "less experienced" but safe drivers too, but it´s not made to be the "step in" mod for the beginners so to speak.
...
The V.1.0 version is actually ready for release now btw, but it´s a bit close to the next race at Mosport (tomorrow) so it will be released at the beginning of next week instead.
It has a lot of new graphics enhancements and a couple of new cars (which was hidden in some MAS files) too. It also has a whole new structure and some refinement´s to it´s physics too. It´s just some minor refinement´s and not a revolution but I do feel that you guy´s deserve to have a few days adapting to it anyways.
I´ve got the new awesome Varjanta UI from Luka this evening too btw which will be added, but I need to make some new In-Game Graphics to make that new UI to suit the F1-75 mods.
.........
I would once again like to say that I´m sorry if I came out as a bit blunt last evening mate. You (and everyone else too) deserve a proper answer and not just a short comment even if I´m a bit stressed up by having my ol´ bro´s standing in my hallway waiting for me.
------------
Cheers
/JC
A couple of my old bro´s who had got word about me doing better now, meaning that the severe burning pain that I´ve felt on my legs has decreased lately, and that I´m doing a lot better now. And they did show up to buy me a few beers down town just as I had read your post´s in this thread so I felt in a bit of hurry wanting to answering your post´s feeling that your comment about auto clutch was a bit strange.
I did however NOT mean to be either disrespectful or blunt mate, I was just in a hurry with my bro´s standing in my hallway waiting for me.
...
And I do appreciate your research and feedback too but even so, I will not add on board starters to the engines as I´m to start with are not certain that they really used those. And besides that I don´t think that they belong in this mod which is supposed to be the "high end" of single seaters mods. Meaning that the cars which (might) feels very nice too drive and so on actually still are F1 cars from an era when they really demanded a lot from you as a driver to be driven really fast AND consistent and I want this mod to reflect that.
My last two races have actually ended in DNF´s just because I stalled the engine, and even if it suxx doing that I feel that it is appropriate as it´s down to me to not stall the engine and if I still do that, tough luck, race over.
This mod IS meant to be driven on line by (nearly) the whole spectrum of drivers from the really experienced sim racing drivers like you and me to the let´s say "less experienced" but safe drivers too, but it´s not made to be the "step in" mod for the beginners so to speak.
...
The V.1.0 version is actually ready for release now btw, but it´s a bit close to the next race at Mosport (tomorrow) so it will be released at the beginning of next week instead.
It has a lot of new graphics enhancements and a couple of new cars (which was hidden in some MAS files) too. It also has a whole new structure and some refinement´s to it´s physics too. It´s just some minor refinement´s and not a revolution but I do feel that you guy´s deserve to have a few days adapting to it anyways.
I´ve got the new awesome Varjanta UI from Luka this evening too btw which will be added, but I need to make some new In-Game Graphics to make that new UI to suit the F1-75 mods.
.........
I would once again like to say that I´m sorry if I came out as a bit blunt last evening mate. You (and everyone else too) deserve a proper answer and not just a short comment even if I´m a bit stressed up by having my ol´ bro´s standing in my hallway waiting for me.
------------
Cheers
/JC
"We're having chassis, aero and motor problems.
Other than that, things are great."
Other than that, things are great."
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by Kiro » 16 May 2010, 00:13
inGame: Kiro
Rank: Co Admin
Joined: 18 Nov 2008, 03:43
Online: 31d 19h 13m 33s
Location: Chesapeake Bay, USA
Medals: 2
Joined: 18 Nov 2008, 03:43
Online: 31d 19h 13m 33s
Location: Chesapeake Bay, USA
Medals: 2
1528 Posts
J.C.Case wrote:I´ve got the new awesome Varjanta UI from Luka this evening too btw which will be added, but I need to make some new In-Game Graphics to make that new UI to suit the F1-75 mods.
Very cool indeed, wish I thought of that.
"After the third flip, I lost control." - Don Roberts
Re: Feedback and Suggestions
by Christopher Snow » 16 May 2010, 05:50
inGame: Christopher Snow
Rank: Amateur Poster
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
Joined: 25 Feb 2010, 07:22
Online: 1d 10h 33m 57s
Location: MST (GMT -7)
Age: 52
Medals: 1
51 Posts
Well, all I can do in regard to this subject is to "lead the horse to water." I can't make him drink it.
I can see your mind is made up, JC, so I'll waste no further effort trying to correct your thinking on the matter. It's your mod, so you can do whatever you want to do with it.
-Ende-
CS
I can see your mind is made up, JC, so I'll waste no further effort trying to correct your thinking on the matter. It's your mod, so you can do whatever you want to do with it.
-Ende-
CS
28 posts
• Page 2 of 2 • 1, 2
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests
